Mystery/Thriller Reading Friends discussion

Chapters 7-9 discussion of The Witch Elm -spoilers welcome on this topic.
If the first to post, please briefly summarize to guide the discussion.

Chapter 7
The cousins come to Ivy House the next morning, edgy after being interviewed by the police. Some of Dominic’s story emerges. He was “off” all his last summer. His disappearance was thought to be suicide because he texted, “sorry” to everyone. Maybe he had the missing key and killed himself in the garden. On a subsequent visit Susanna recounts an episode of childhood mischief. Leon flatly says he doesn’t remember. Toby has the feeling he kind of remembers. Susanna looks at him with “sharp assessment.” Hugo has his last radiation session. Leon becomes ever more nervy. Susanna tells Toby to take care with Leon. Stressed, he might say something to the police that makes them suspicious of Toby. “You know, he doesn’t always like you that much.”

Detective Martin visits. He tells Toby that Rafferty has heard Toby “had problems with” Dominic. The police believe it was murder, not suicide. Is it possible the assault on Toby was revenge because someone thought he did it? Martin says he came to give Toby a heads up about Rafferty’s suspicions. Toby should think about why someone would imply he had conflict with Dominic.

Toby ruminates and convinces himself the burglary/assault and Dominic’s murder must be connected. The burglars took an old camera with pictures on it that might reveal something. He talks to a past friend of Susanna’s who tells him Dominic was hard on his cousins at school. Toby is impressed with his investigative skills.

Sean and Dec come for dinner. All reminisce and pinpoint the party where the key went missing. Dec’s memories establish Dominic was a serious bully, especially to Leon. The friends help Toby remember the night he was assaulted. Toby now is suspicious of Leon setting up the assault. Melissa discourages him from continuing to ask questions because anything he finds out couldn’t make him happy.

Chapter 8
Rafferty and Kerr come to the house. They question Toby about a red hoodie they took away after the house search. Someone has given them a picture of Toby in what seems to be the same hoodie. The detectives are playing they don’t know if it was murder or suicide, but Toby remembers Martin’s warning. The garden door key was found in the tree as well as a cord tied in a way that could be used as a garrote. The hoodie’s cord is missing. The detectives say if Dominic was strangled by the cord, his DNA will be on it. Toby points out that if it was his hoodie, his DNA will be on it too. They tell him Leon “let slip” that Dominic bullied him. The detectives encourage Toby to say so now if he killed Dominic by accident when he was only trying to scare him. Toby tells them to leave.

Toby is shaken to realize that before the assault he would have been able to talk his way out of the police’s suspicions; now he can’t: “defective, unreliable, lacking any credibility or authority of weight, guilty as hell.” He wonders if Leon planned to make Toby damaged so he could be blamed. He wonders what Susanna’s role is.

That evening Hugo has a seizure. Later Melissa tells Toby the police interviewed her after they talked to him. She grasped they think Toby killed Dominic. Toby tells her he intends to continue investigating and she again discourages him.

Chapter 9
Toby invites Leon and Susanna over to dinner with the intention of playing them to get information. He asks Melissa to help him steer the conversation. At dinner Hugo tells them that he’s going to leave the house to everyone: his brothers and the cousins will each have an equal share. Hugo goes to bed.

The cousins drink and smoke hash. Susanne tells Toby she thought he took the key and reminds him he was doing coke with Dominic near the gate on the night it disappeared. Toby recognizes if he didn’t take the key, Dominic had to have done it. Throughout the evening Toby catches looks and unspoken messages between Susanna and Leon. The talk turns to Dominic’s escalating bullying of Leon and Toby not doing enough to stop it. Leon rages. Melissa abruptly says she’s had enough and goes inside. When Toby follows her, she says “look what you’re doing to each other.” She’s also caught that there’s something unspoken between Leon and Susanna. They’re all manipulating each other. She wants Toby to leave Ivy House with her because the only way to get out of the mess is to get away.

Toby returns to the cousins and ends up accusing Leon of the assault. He says “At least I’ve finally found the one person who’s got a grudge against me—.” Susanna reveals that the night Dominic disappeared she’d gone to Toby’s room and he wasn’t there. Toby suddenly gets that Leon and Susanna actually believe that he did the murder and they’re tipping the detectives to keep themselves from being blamed.

They’re interrupted by noises on the roof and terrified when something swoops past them. Susanna says it was an owl. Toby envisions an eerie, parallel Ivy House completely changed from their childhood haven. The cousins leave and Toby goes in to find Melissa has packed and left. He's consumed with the idea that the reason everyone believes he murdered Dominic is because he did and has forgotten it.

Gosh, I'm sorry y'all. My summaries just keep getting longer and longer. So many intricacies to the story that I can't decide which are important and which aren't. I keep telling myself that at least there will be a complete review of the plot when other people read the book later.

I ended this section feeling as icky as the characters do. So much suspicion and ugliness. Worry about Hugo, and as the story turns away from him I have the feeling that the cousins are also turning away. Then Melissa leaves after Hugo has just told her how lovely it's been that she's stayed with him. It's hard to get the timeline of the story but it seems it can only have been a few weeks since the big concerns were Toby's recovery, Hugo's health, and the disposition of the house they all loved. Now I feel like Hugo is forgotten and Toby's regains have only cause him to stir up a hornet's nest.

Is it really possible the burglary and the murder are connected? It sure seems so because of the camera being taken, but it also just feels like a stretch to me. There's so much that's off about the burglary--burglarizing when Toby was at home, attacking him so brutally when they just needed to get away.

I thought it was nice of Detective Martin to warn Toby, but maybe too nice. I'm suspicious. In a story about suspicion.

Now how about the noises on the roof? I may be becoming as paranoid as the cousins, but I'm not convinced it was only an owl. Is someone watching them, seeing them fall apart and lose each other's support?

I don't really think Toby committed the murder. But I don't really think the cousins did it either. I keep remembering--Toby doesn't always seem to remember this fact--that it would have taken a lot to get a dead body up the tree and into the hole. I'm not sure either Leon or Susanna could have done it. Who does that leave? It almost has to be a family member because the hole wasn't visible from the ground. Not known to anyone who hadn't been up the tree. Only I don't want it to be a family member or close friend. Hugo is described as large and muscular before his illness so he might have been able to maneuver the body, but what motive could he have? (And I don't want to believe it of him anyway.)

I started out thinking the genealogy would have some point related to the plot, but we seem to have gotten away from that. Maybe it's just there to resonate with the theme of the difficulties and danger of digging into the past. Not to mention the possibility of finding out things you may not want to know.

About 2/3 of the way through the book now. I'm enjoying it, but I do find myself keeping an eye on the percentage finished. It's almost, not quite, a slog. I think that's because we're inside Toby's head and he has to go through a lot of loops and machinations and stops and starts in his thinking. Sometimes it's just too much. But it does make me have some understanding of what it would be like to be him. Does that help me sympathize with some of the stupid moves he's making? No. Not really.

I finished this set. And I agree it is a bit of a chore. But I am finally feeling like the story is getting somewhere.

Yes, it was nice of Martin to give Toby a heads up that Toby is a suspect. But his utter surprise made me laugh. Of course, he was a suspect! How could he NOT be? It just seemed very naive of Toby to not realize this.

I am finding it interesting how Toby keeps going through it all to figure out who could be “framing” him. He so convinced himself it had to be Leon. I don’t think it’s Leon. But that does only leave friends, Hugo and Susanna. For some reason, Susanna niggles at me that she could be involved.

But I agree a strong man would be the only one capable enough to hoist a body in a tree.

The lost key thing niggles at me too. LOL

Melissa taking off like that because she was afraid of what Toby may find out just doesn’t seem right to me. She is afraid Toby might have done this but is begging him to go back with her? Or even if she thinks his cousins may be framing him, why wouldn’t she want to stay around to help him?

And Toby starting to believe he may have killed Dominic, that is crazy too. How messed up would a person have to be to not remember a murder!

And the attack on Toby still doesn’t make sense! I’m glad I’ll be finishing up so I can finally get some answers. One thing French has done very well is totally confusing me!

Geri wrote: “Yes, it was nice of Martin to give Toby a heads up that Toby is a suspect. But his utter surprise made me laugh. Of course, he was a suspect! How could he NOT be? It just seemed very naive of Toby to not realize this.

Geri, I think it was Toby’s total self-absorption that made him so clueless that he’d be a suspect. He doesn’t even conceive that he could be suspected because he’s innocent. At least he thinks he is until the detectives introduce some doubt.

Geri also wrote: “Melissa taking off like that because she was afraid of what Toby may find out just doesn’t seem right to me. She is afraid Toby might have done this but is begging him to go back with her? Or even if she thinks his cousins may be framing him, why wouldn’t she want to stay around to help him?

I wondered about Melissa’s relationship with Toby from the beginning. She seemed too genuinely a nice and normal person to be with someone as shifty and shallow as Toby. I think she left not because of any belief in his guilt or innocence but because she saw in that drunken conversation among the cousins a glimpse of underlying ugliness. She also heard about an questionable side of Toby when he didn’t do more to defend his cousin from bullying. Toby sees exchanged looks between his cousins and doesn’t it say that Melissa saw it too? It’s an all-out reveal of tangled relationships among this formerly tightknit trio. Melissa must wonder why Toby wouldn’t want to get away. (But why would she be okay with leaving Hugo? That troubles me.)

Also, Toby had asked Melissa to help him steer the conversation and that brought her more involvement than she can tolerate in whatever’s going on. Remember in an earlier chapter she said something about Toby’s “detecting” that anything he found out couldn’t do him good. After this fraught conversation, that’s quadruply true.

I also think French is just angling to leave Toby completely alone, with no ally. French’s machinations seem very apparent and sometimes awkward in this book and caused me to give a lower rating. Your mileage may vary!

Geri also said: lAnd Toby starting to believe he may have killed Dominic, that is crazy too. How messed up would a person have to be to not remember a murder!”

I can buy this from two angles. First the brain injury has left gaps in Toby’s memory. Up to this point it’s just involved losing words and amnesia for the night of the attack, but I can see that giving him overall doubts. I also think a brain injury can leave a person more vulnerable to incorporating others’ opinions into his self image. That could be part of the loss of a sense of self that comes with a horrible attack and needing care.

Geri said: One thing French has done very well is totally confusing me! "

Totally! This book had me completely confused. Sometimes when I’m reading a book I’ll have an idea about the mystery and, at the end, it turns out I was completely wrong. But this book just had me confused!

Oy! I’m still finding his slow and feel like I’m slogging through it. Nothing is grabbing me as much as I’d like, though I’m very interested to know the real reason behind the break in because there doesn’t seem to be an obvious connection anywhere.

Toby, especially in chapter 9, was really bothering me. His constant and complete confidence in thinking he has it all figured it out is so naive and annoying. And seriously get your lawyer on the phone already. Not a time to be so arrogant about things!

I definitely am constantly worrying about Hugo and wish everyone would remember him more and make that a priority!

I was waiting for when Melissa would finally realize it was time to go. It makes me sad because she makes Hugo happy but I do get it. Though with her gone I would imagine Hugo will get worse even faster.

Okay final stretch is coming! I’m sort of ready to be done, or at least would like a little more action in the end!

Karly: Curiosity does drive us on, and the brutality of the beating Toby suffered in the break in does hang over the rest of the events. They certainly appeared to go overboard - and way past just incapacitating a surprised homeowner.
As for Melissa staying so long, yes, she was a wonderful balm for Hugo and so supportive of Toby and his recovery. I admired her for not abandoning him after the beating and felt that her optimism led her to hope he would get better and return to his happy go lucky “pre-self”.
Ms. O’Cat hit a couple of particularly pertinent points when she: “wondered about Melissa’s relationship with Toby from the beginning. She seemed too genuinely a nice and normal person to be with someone as shifty and shallow as Toby. I think she left not because of any belief in his guilt or innocence but because she saw in that drunken conversation among the cousins a glimpse of underlying ugliness. She also heard about an questionable side of Toby when he didn’t do more to defend his cousin from bullying. ”
Who could continue to view the cousins through rose-colored glasses after that night. Toby mentioned several times that he should have left Ivy House with Melissa and intimated she may have been willing to ignore the potential for years ago involvement in Dominic’s death. That night sure left no doubt that there was serious ugliness under the surface of the cousins’ history; and no hope to go back to denial.
Karly wrote: "Oy! I’m still finding his slow and feel like I’m slogging through it. Nothing is grabbing me as much as I’d like, though I’m very interested to know the real reason behind the break in because there doesn’t seem to be an obvious connection anywhere..."

OMalleycat wrote: "Now how about the noises on the roof?"

I was 100% sure that it was either Hugo or Melissa about to jump off the roof! The owl is interesting though. Some cultures believe they are an omen of death or evil. Others believe they are all knowing (i.e. secrets cannot be kept from them).

OMalleycat wrote: "I don't want it to be a family member or close friend."

Same here, but I keep coming back to Dec as my main suspect.

Geri wrote: "Of course, he was a suspect! How could he NOT be? "

I have to admit, if a skeleton was found in my backyard and even if it was someone I went to high school with, I would never believe I could be a suspect.

Shannon wrote: “The owl is interesting though. Some cultures believe they are an omen of death or evil. Others believe they are all knowing (i.e. secrets cannot be kept from them). "

Thanks, Shannon. Even after finishing the book I thought this scene was a strange inclusion with no purpose except to up the ante of mystery and anxiety. Your interpretation lends some meaning.