The Seasonal Reading Challenge discussion

This is the discussion thread for the Fall 2011 Group Read The Forgotten Garden by Kate Morton. Please post your comments here. This thread is not restricted to those choosing this book for task 20.10, feel free to join in the discussion. Warning- spoilers ahead!

I really enjoyed this. At first, I was a little put off by the jumping back and forth in different times - I'd get really interested in something happening and suddenly we'd jump to another time.

I did think she threw in too many miseries that weren't necessary for the plot - it seemed as if everyone had some sort of unhappy back story, even if it didn't really relate to the plot. Things were thrown in that didn't seem necessary - for instance, the references to Nell's having been a lousy mother and having a troubled relationship with her daughter - I kept waiting for some sort of explanation. Or, toward the end of the 1913 part, it seemed as if Linus was getting a little creepy about Nell (Ivory), but that just seemed to drop.

Small criticisms - overall,I enjoyed it, and it certainly moved right along and kept me interested. I'll read more by her - I've put a hold at the library on The House at Riverton.

I had a pretty dismal summer challenge. Just couldn't seem to get into anything. So I was thrilled when this book just sucked me in and didn't let go ;-). Absolutely worth the 500+ pages, in my opinion.

I actually enjoyed the jumping back and forth between time periods because I liked how each one ended in a cliffhanger that made you want to keep reading until you got back to that time period so you could find out what the heck was going on! Of course, I tend to like this kind of narrative anyway. Books where each chapter is told in a different character's point of view, epistolary novels, etc. get me every time.... ;-)

I'm definitely looking forward to reading more from Kate Morton!

"The Forgotten Garden" is the story of a young girl abandoned on a ship sailing from England to Australia that later tries to find her birth family. Kate Morton has woven together a multigenerational novel, told from various points of view, that spans from the early 20th Century to the present. The cast of characters was a little confusing in the first few chapters, but then the story completely sucked me in and I couldn't wait to see what was going to happen next. The book had Dickinsonian elements, Victorian secrets, fairy tales, romance, and lots of twists and turns.

I'll be reading another Kate Morton book later this month for a library book group, and I'm looking foreward to it because she's a wonderful storyteller.

This book kept me turning pages. I think Morton handled a story that could have turned into a cliche very well. Lots of atmosphere, texture, and secrets. I think Adeline was drawn a bit heavy-handed and the Linus storyline wasn’t developed enough. I think adding the fairy tales intact was a nice touch.

I really enjoyed this book, so much so that I checked out The House at Riverton from the library yesterday.

This was an intriguing story with interesting, complex characters. It was also beautifully written. I agree that the author could have shed more light on the relationship between Nell and her daughter. I also think think more could be added regarding Linus's obsession with Georgiana, and later, with Eliza. I felt this was touched on just enough to be creepy but it would have been nice to get a little more detail.

I liked how the story moved back and forth between time periods and characters. It kept me engaged and waiting to see what happened next.

I loved this book so much that I read it and then bought the audible and listened to it.

Sandy...I got the same creepy feelings.

Sandy wrote: "I really enjoyed this book, so much so that I checked out The House at Riverton from the library yesterday.

This was an intriguing story with interesting, complex characters. It wa..."

I just finished The House at Riverton yesterday. It also goes back and forth between different time periods, was full of family secrets, and a lot of the action occurs in a family mansion in Great Britain. It was a good read, but I liked The Forgotten Garden more.

It took me about 200 pages to get into this, and all the while the jumping from character to character and from one time period to another made me batty. Once I crossed that 200 page threshold, though, the format grew on me and and I started to like the story a lot more. The fairy tales were the best part and I wished there were more (with illustrations!). I'd recommend the book, but with a warning about how it might take a while to, well, take. The plot developments were not too mysterious, but I wasn't looking for Agatha Christie. I thought a couple of the minor characters were especially well sketched--William and Ruby, in particular, and would have liked to have known more about some others--Sammy, Georgiana, and Adeline, for example. Good to leave you wanting more, I guess!

Sandy wrote: "I really enjoyed this. At first, I was a little put off by the jumping back and forth in different times - I'd get really interested in something happening and suddenly we'd jump to another time. ..."

I thought the miseries were really interesting. When Eliza first arrived at Blackhurst she sees a ghostly black ship out on the horizon that disappears. Later William tells Cassandra of a curse on the Mountrachet family because they scavenged some wreck and killed the remaining crew. Local lore says the ghost of that ship can still be seen along the coast. Was there really a curse or did the family simply bring it all on themselves?

I really enjoyed this story and am looking forward to reading more of Morton's work. The story of a young girl left alone aboard a ship as it sets sail from England to Australia and what happens to her afterward is quite compelling. From this starting point Morton weaves three stories: what happens to the little girl who becomes known as Nell; her granddaughter, Cassandra; and Eliza, whom we see grow from girl to woman at the turn of the 20th century and whose fate is the key to Nell and Cassandra. The themes of abandonment and loss are carried throughout the story. Eliza is a young girl whose mother has died leaving her and her twin brother in the slums of London worried that their mother's family may come and steal them. She grows up to become "the Authoriess" whose fairy tales of confinement and loss are Nell's only link to her past. Nell has spent her entire adult life trying to find out who she really is and why she was shipped off to Australia. Cassandra has spent ten years in mourning for the husband and son she lost in a car crash. Nell's death, Cassandra's discovery of Nell's past, and her inheritance of a Cornish cottage Nell had bought years before without telling anyone set the stage for the stories to come together. Of course Cassandra sets off for Cornwall to figure out the mystery.

There are more than a few nits to pick, if one wanted to pick nits. The jumping around between time periods is difficult to keep track of at first, but smooths out as the book goes along. The arrival of the perfect clue at exactly the write time for Cassandra becomes a bit ridiculous, in one case perfectly ludicrous. People who have been able to keep secrets for 70 years are suddenly thrilled to be spilling their guts. It would be nice to have more insight into why Nell's relationship with her own daughter was so poor. It definitely makes Nell a less than sympathetic character, despite her experiences. Cassandra's love interest is a little too good to be true, too. (An oncologist who gives up his practice to become a jack-of-all-trades?) But they don't detract too much from the overall story, which definitely kept me turning the pages.

i really loved this book. there is something special about this book that really pulled me in. i saw it back when it first came out at a local store, and meant to read it, but didn't until last year, where i fell in love with it.
I think that the fact that it resonates through more then one timeline is great, and it really caught my eye.

i got these discussion questions off another site, but it also said that there are Kate Morton's own site as well.


1. On the night of her twenty-first birthday, Nell's father, Hugh, tells her a secret that shatters her sense of self. How important is a strong sense of identity to a person's life? Was Hugh right to tell her about her past? How might Nell's life have turned out differently had she not discovered the truth?

2. Did Hugh and Lil make the right decision when they kept Nell?

3. How might Nell's choice of occupation have been related to her fractured identity?

4. Is it possible to escape the past, or does one's history always find a way to revisit the present?

5. Eliza, Nell and Cassandra all lose their birth mothers when they are still children. How are their lives affected differently by this loss? How might their lives have evolved had they not had this experience?

6. Nell believes that she comes from a tradition of 'bad mothers'. Does this belief become a self-fulfilling prophesy? How does Nell's relationship with her granddaughter, Cassandra, allow her to revisit this perception of herself as a 'bad mother'?

7. Is The Forgotten Garden a love story? If so, in what way/s?

8. Tragedy has been described as 'the conflict between desire and possibility'. Following this definition, is The Forgotten Garden a tragedy? If so, in what way/s?

9. A 'plait' motif threads through The Forgotten Garden. What significance might plaits have for the story?

10. In what ways do Eliza's fairy tales underline and develop other themes within the novel?

11. In what ways do the settings in The Forgotten Garden represent or reflect the characters' experiences?

i thought it might be interesting to see people's views on these questions? only if you want to of course! :D

1. On the night of her twenty-first birthday, Nell's father, Hugh, tells her a secret that shatters her sense of self. How important is a strong sense of identity to a person's life? Was Hugh right to tell her about her past? How might Nell's life have turned out differently had she not discovered the truth?
-- I think that Nell would have eventually found out anyway, and that Hugh told her before she found out on her own was important. I think that knowing where you come from is important, as you can easily feel lost when not knowing. But i do think that if she had never fund out, she may have been a lot happier in life, though i still think se did need to know.

2. Did Hugh and Lil make the right decision when they kept Nell?
--I think they did. Who knows where she may have ended up if she hadn't been taken in by them. Her life could have been far worse, or it may have been better.

3. How might Nell's choice of occupation have been related to her fractured identity?
--I think that subconsciously, Nell wanted to fix her life, and that Antiques were/are a metaphor for that want. As well as the fact that you never know where an Antique really comes from, which is mirrored in Nell's life because she didn't know for a long time where i was that she really came from.

4. Is it possible to escape the past, or does one's history always find a way to revisit the present?
--You can always escape it to a certain point, but it will always impact your life, even if your history is unknown to even you.

5. Eliza, Nell and Cassandra all lose their birth mothers when they are still children. How are their lives affected differently by this loss? How might their lives have evolved had they not had this experience?
--Eliza was affected by the fact that because her mother died, everything from that point on changed in way or another. Eliza would have mostly likely grown up in the slums of London all her lie is Georgiana hadn't died.
--If Nell had not lost her mother, she would have grown up with not only another name entirely - but the negative figure of Adeline in her life and would have emerged different entirely different. Bu i do think that her life would have been screwed up anyway, as Eliza's secret would have came out eventually.
--Cassandra knew the value of a loving and fair parent, despite the fact that her mother abandoned her. Though i do feel that Leslie could see that Nell would be able to give Cassandra what she couldn't, and that she did a good thing giving her to Nell, and ahe was a fit mother.

6. Nell believes that she comes from a tradition of 'bad mothers'. Does this belief become a self-fulfilling prophesy? How does Nell's relationship with her granddaughter, Cassandra, allow her to revisit this perception of herself as a 'bad mother'?
--I think that Nell secretly saw Cassandra as a second chance. To right whatever wrongs she had done with Leslie. And that she may possibly blame herself for the fact that Leslie didnt turn out to be a good mother. I think Nell may think that she taught Leslie the mad mothering habits that she shows in the book.

7. Is The Forgotten Garden a love story? If so, in what way/s?
--Not really. I feel it is a mystery and a self discovery. Though we see love within the book, i feel that the closet thing to being a love story that this book has is the loyalty that Eliza shows to Rose.

8. Tragedy has been described as 'the conflict between desire and possibility'. Following this definition, is The Forgotten Garden a tragedy? If so, in what way/s?
--Yes. It is a tragedy that Eliza was taken out of one sense of poverty, unhappiness and longing, only to be put into another sense of it. In London, she lacked wealth and warmth, and for a while she lacked a companion. And though she fund wealth and a companion at Blackhurst Manor, the physical coldness of London was only replaced by Adeline's traetment on her.

9. A 'plait' motif threads through The Forgotten Garden. What significance might plaits have for the story?
--The fact that the book intertwines the the seperate timelines and stories of the main characters together, the relationship between Eliza, Rose and Nathaniel, and maybe even the events that happen in London, Blackhurst and the Cottage itself.

10. In what ways do Eliza's fairy tales underline and develop other themes within the novel?
--I cant remember the fairytales enough to answer at the moment :I

11. In what ways do the settings in The Forgotten Garden represent or reflect the characters' experiences?
--The cottage represents Eliza's involvement within Blackhurst. There but always to the side and slightly hidden. Never kept secret, just not spoken of frequently. Australia represents the difference between Nell's life as it is now, and what she once was. In a way, Nell has been set adrift in life because, she no longer feels like Hugh's family, but she has no family where she came from either. So in a way, she like Australia itself, unconnected to everything. Cassandra and London represents new places and discovery within her own life. And in some ways, the fact that new things will always arrive in life at the same times as life has to keep going. Life is constant, just like London.

For me, the one gaping hole in this story is the Nell-Leslie-Cassandra connection. At some point Nell got married. We know almost nothing about him. Did she love hime? How did she feel when Leslie was born? It's not clear why she would think she would be a bad mother. The only example in her life (her adoptive mother) was clearly a wonderful mother, and Hugh was a wonderful father. They doted on Nell and she appears to have been the favorite among all the daughters. Nell only knew Eliza as the Authoress and has no idea how or why she was placed on the ship. SO although she knows she lost a mother, there are many other possible reasons beyond abandonment. (And unlike Eliza's life, the way Nell was dressed, her suitcase, and the way she spoke would have made it clear she came from a better-than-average home.) In fact, if anything, I would have expected Nell to be an even more devoted mother to try to make sure nothing bad would happen to her daughter.

At the beginning I needed some time to get into it. The abrupt breaks and changes in time got me quite confused (at one point I even had to check the earlier chapter for the date). However, this got easier once the story evolved and I had the characters and their respective times/environmens fixed in mind. Then I quite enjoyed myself reading the book. Following Cassandra in the search of Nell's and therefore her own roots and reading aobut it first hand simultaneously made it more vivid than just having it told.

I have to agree with Chris, somehow the Nell-Leslie-Cassandra story was the weak point of the story. It couldn't have hurt to have at least one or two more chapters on this aspect to make it understandable.

This book fairly bored me in the beginning mostly due to the jumping between time periods. Once you finally got set into that it became much better. I agree with Chris about the relationship between Nell-Leslie-Cassandra.

However I think that this book was really good once I got into it. I think that the mystery behind the family was fairly good. I was listening to it on audiobook. I figured that Eliza was the biological mother since about 2/3 into the book and was wondering when everyone else would finally figure it out. I think it was sad in the end how Eliza came to pass. She was such a great spirit in the entire book.

Oh yeah.... not to fond of the epilogue either.

For some reason I was skeptical about my possible enjoyment of this book. No reason, just was. It dragged me in the moment I started. I got used to the jumping about a couple chapters in and could keep everyone straight pretty well. I also suspected Eliza to be the mother as soon as Rose's parentage was found to be suspect. Her red hair was a huge giveaway as well.

Cindy F

Like many of the comments made by other readers it did take a bit of time to get used to the jumping back and forth to different times but then all of a sudden you get caught up in each time. The ending was not a big surprise I could see it coming with Nell actually being Eliza's daughter with Nathaniel. All in all I thought it was very good and kept me reading.

Set in several of the characters’ pov, and in multiple time periods from the late 1800’s until 2005, the story jumps quite a bit. Just as the reader is about to find out a key piece of evidence through the voice of one character, the story jumps to another character in another time period. Over time, I found this to be annoying, especially when I had figured out the mystery and just wanted to get on with it to see if my surmise was correct or not. I feel many of these changes could have been eliminated and the book abridged by a couple of hundred pages without damaging the central story. However, except for all the schizophrenia of the multiple personalities and time traveling, I found the main story charming, especially the tie in with the classic book The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett

It took me a bit to get into this book - possibly due to not being able to read it all in one sitting, so I had to keep going back and re-reading to find out where I was. But overall I enjoyed it - it was a nice break from the usual storyline. I especially enjoyed the descriptions of the gardens, buildings, and scenery, in both Australia and England.

to Rebekah(2 comments up), were you correct in your surmise? did you guess it right? i thought right from the start that it was Eliza, and was thrilled when i found out i was indeed correct!

I loved the book but yeah, it took me quite a while to get through the first half. After that, I couldn't stop reading.

I wasn't sure I would like this book to begin with. It struck me as being more of a family drama oriented novel, which isn't usually my cup of tea, but once the story got rolling, and the various characters and time periods were established, I became quite engaged. I liked the format of moving between different time periods, and piecing together what occurred in the historical storyline with what future generations discovered as they went along. And I loved how the fairy tales mirrored the characters and their lives, even beyond Eliza's understanding. Fairy stories can make powerful stuff!